Demise of petrol and diesel, hello electric.

AmericanThunder

Super Moderator
Found this article written by Quentin Wilson.
Couple of years old but very relevant and very eloquent.

Part 1.

All over the UK astonished drivers are asking the same question: who decided that banning the internal combustion engine was a good idea? July’s announcement that the government will ban sales of petrol and diesel cars and vans by 2040 was dropped on industry and consumers as a total surprise while the PM was on holiday and Parliament was in summer recess. Worried voices asked the obvious question. Where did this incredible bombshell come from? Well, the responsibility for the most seismic change in personal mobility since the invention of the car rests with the environmental lawyers of Client Earth who, through the High Court, have forced the government to formulate hard proposals to reduce NO2 and particulate emissions from road transport across the UK. In 2015 the European Environment Agency published that now contentious headline figure of 40,000 premature deaths from nitrogen dioxide pollution that has terrified consumers and legislators alike and created the diesel hysteria we’ve seen throughout the last two years. But if you dig deeper into the EEA’s tables in that report the actual ‘Years of Life Lost’ as a result of NO2 exposure per capita across the population of Europe is actually only an average of 3 1/2 hours. Let me repeat that: an average of just three-and-a-half hours. If 40,000 people were really dying each year as a direct result of urban air pollution, our hospitals would be in melt down. But the media took this mischievous number on face value and the inaccurate ‘Premature Deaths’ headline was repeated many tens of thousands of times and has now become the new battle cry for the Green's war against the car and van.

Despite tiny numbers of people actually voting for green parties across Europe they’ve been waging a quiet class war against the internal combustion engine for years and their influence in Brussels and Westminster is amazingly powerful. Well financed (and with considerable help from the European Commission), they’ve managed to persuade the French and UK governments to sign the ultimate death warrant for the motor car as we know it. Millions of drivers in the UK are saying that they weren’t consulted at all and have watched the values of the diesel cars they were told to buy by a Labour government fall in value by a collective £35 billion. Quite rightly they’re saying that this situation isn’t fair at all. The 34 million driving consumers in the UK are alarmed, confused and have been financially disadvantaged. And they bought diesels only because they were told they were doing the right thing. Now they’re being told that in 23 years all cars and vans must be electric because the greens insist this the only way to clean our urban air. As a long-term electric car driver and passionate advocate, (I’ve owned five EVs over the last seven years) I’d love to say that I agree, but I don’t. And I wonder how many green evangelists and politicians have put as many electric miles under their wheels as I have? Not many, I bet.



And that gives me a special position in this debate. I know both the strengths and limitations of our current lithium battery technology and charging infrastructure and have to admit that unless we have a game-changing technological development in the next 23 years the modal shift to pure electrification just won’t be practical or possible. Where will we find enough rare earth metals to make 30 million batteries and the state funding for 10 million public rapid charging points? How will we generate enough renewable electricity to feed the enormous demand for clean electricity? Building more nuclear power stations isn’t a green option and nor are more coal fired power stations. We’ll need much greater battery density, much shorter charge times and feasible battery ranges from a short charge of at least 350 miles. Teslas may deliver much longer battery ranges but Elon Musk’s prices aren’t cheap. We’d all love to drive the wonderful Tesla Model S, Model 3 or Model X but at minimum prices of between £30k and £50k, it's beyond most of our finances. The £10,000 350-mile range mass-market EV is still a very long way off and our current battery technology is leagues away from that idealistic vision as well.

I know this because I drive an EV every single day. My Nissan Leaf will just cover 90 miles to one overnight charge and if I want to go further I need to stop at a rapid charger for 35 minutes, pay £7.50 and get my battery up to 80% charge again. If I want to cover 300 miles I have to charge three times and the same again to get home. Mainstream consumers just won’t put up with those constraints. For evangelical EV advocates like me, it may work but the 34 million UK drivers would swamp the network and bring down the National Grid in a heartbeat. To power 34 million electric cars and vans the grid will need to produce 22 extra Giga Watts, yet maximum capacity is 75 GW and peak demand is currently 60 GW. Base load is 35 GW so the extra power needed will bring electricity demand close to peak demand every single day - and probably every single night too. Can we really supply all that extra power? We really do need to think about the ramifications of all this very seriously indeed.

Because the cost to consumers, industry and the government will be enormous and the disruption to manufacturing, liquid fuels, parts supply chain, motor industry and oil production will add up to trillions and wipe away millions of jobs. Electric cars need far fewer moving parts and virtually no lubricants so a manufacturing, maintenance and parts supply industry that employs 800,000 will shrink dramatically. The UK economy is inextricably linked to all these sources of employment, GDP and tax revenue. Take all that economic activity away and you risk towing the UK economy out to sea and sinking it with gunfire. And that’s why banning sales of internal combustion engined cars and vans completely is such a radical step. Why the cliff edge? Why the complete ban? Let consumers and technology decide the direction our future personal mobility strategy rather than allowing a small coven of green warriors to decide for us. The risk is just too great and the effect on our economy too vast. And it will be vast. No more car engine plants, a 60% decline in the parts and repair industry, no more fuel stations and the loss of two million jobs - at that’s just for starters. New jobs will certainly be created by the new electric economy but the state will have to finance an entire electric charging infrastructure for the whole of the UK and significant sources of new clean power generation. Will the private sector finance all this? I don’t think so. The government will have to dig very deep to build this brave new era of electrification. And that could mean tax rises to pay for it all which could cause increased inflation and interest rates.

On the plus side, we will see more battery innovation and R&D so range and density will improve over time. We may see new materials like graphene used to create lighter, cheaper batteries but we’re already seeing the commodities industries buying up rare earth metals like cobalt and lithium and prices have risen 350% in the last few years. I like the idea of stimulating the market to develop and overcome its current technological shortcomings but this feels a lot like inventing perpetual motion and at the moment those technological solutions just aren’t there. We’ve had over 100 years to get the petrol and diesel combustion engine to where it is today and we’re expecting to completely reinvent an alternative power source and national delivery infrastructure in just 23 years. I know innovation isn’t linear but a quarter of a century doesn’t sound like nearly enough time at all.
 
Part 2.

The overwhelming question we should all be asking is what improvement will this huge change make to our urban air quality? Targeting just passenger cars and light vans (responsible for only 16% of NO2 emissions) won’t remove enough nitrogen dioxides and particulates to make a significant difference. We’ll need to restrict industrial and private combustion (all those wood burning stoves and gas and oil central heating boilers will have to go) and reduce emissions from trucks, trains, buses, ships and ground-based diesel powered machinery to really see a significant reduction in urban pollutants. Nobody mentions the fact that buses generate 8% of emissions, underground and overland trains 12%, plant and machinery 14% and domestic and commercial heating over 30% of urban pollutants. And nobody is really sure exactly how much emissions are produced by farming and shipping both of which rely heavily on diesel - and much of it is the heavy oil variety and not low sulphur diesel. Look at all our inland waterways and the 80 + major ports across England and Wales and there’s a rather large cloud of NO2 and particulate matter that isn’t even being measured accurately.



Backed into a legal corner by Client Earth’s lawyers Michael Gove (not a politician with any significant technological or motoring background) has pressed the nuclear button and in doing so has created a massive electoral risk for the Conservatives. Any political party that threatens the freedom of movement of 70% of the electorate must understand how dangerous that is. Driving consumers in the UK have been repeatedly blamed for the poor government transport policies over the last 40 years and July 2017 may be the moment their patience was pushed to its absolute limit. If you have a view on the government’s latest announcement then write to Number 10 (email.number10.gov.uk) and your local MP. If just a fraction of the 34 million drivers out there sent just one email this government might understand the huge risk of what they’re proposing and the strength of public feeling out there. And if you don’t make your views heard the green parties will have won the day and changed our transport landscape forever. I may love my electric car but I’m reasonable enough to understand that we need much more time to bring this emergent technology to mass adoption. Don't ban our existing way of getting about the country but encourage and stimulate new technologies so the Big Change is organic, gradual and achievable. Do that and by 2040 consumers will be able to make their own choice - but completely ban the motor car altogether and you risk an electoral revolution and political oblivion. Theresa May please take note…
 
but completely ban the motor car altogether and you risk an electoral revolution and political oblivion.
its still a motor car even if its an electric motor.

Hopefully petrol pumps will still be around by 2040. 20more years of fuel will see me till I'm 65.

If they can may synthetic oil, can synthetic fuel be made?
 
An interesting article. Although, judging from the abundance of open ended questions, speculation and "what if's", Quentin does appear quite biased and like the rest of us, doesn't actually know himself the true effects of automotive pollution or the costs, consequences or effects of a change to electric. He quoted lots of facts and figures, but data I have found on this subject has, on this forum, been rebuffed as falsified or inaccurate, so why are we expected to believe his? He quotes average life expectancy as a result of automotive pollution to be reduced by only hours, but how on earth can even the best informed experts determine or be sure what was the true cause of death in every case. It doesn't mention the reduced life expectancy or quality of life for those with related health conditions. Despite the figures quoted, it is delusional to believe that street level pollution from traffic is not significant in large towns and cities. This is directly and easily measurable. A good indicator was as we came out of lockdown and resumed driving, but when public transport including flights and passenger sea travel remained minimal for a time.
It may be that the effects of pollution from road vehicles is not as severe as many environmentalists would have us believe, but my personal belief is that they are enough to do something about. And I don't believe the change to electric vehicles will be "cliff edge" as Quentin puts it, but a gradual change, which has already started. Even since this article was written, numbers of available electric cars has massively increased and the technology behind them has improved, as I believe it will continue to along with charging technology and infrastructure over the next 20 years. Having said all of that, even I think it may be pushing it to completely ban combustion engined cars by then lol.
 
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He quotes average life expectancy as a result of automotive pollution to be reduced by only hours, but how on earth can even the best informed experts determine or be sure what was the true cause of death in every case.
This year the cause of death will be Covid, no matter what you die off, even if you are hit by a bus or fall off a cliff.
 
The problem, with both Quentin article and the data presented on here is that unless data is measured in the same way, with the same variables and for the same reason you will always get skewed results. That has been ably demonstrated on here.
Until rational data is presented in a rational way to give a rational view and not to try and promote one viewpoint over another it’s all meaningless.

And I don’t expect anyone to believe anything in the Quentin article. I posted it as a discussion point only. You are free to believe what ever you like.
 
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I'm not saying this figures are accurate, but you do have to dig up a great deal of raw material to make a battery. If the battery can be recycled then its not too bad. But can all of it be recycled?....

I once watch a 'How its made' type TV episode when macking an AA battery. It took 1000 times more energy to make the battery compared to what the battery puts out in its life.
 
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I'm not saying this figures are accurate, but you do have to dig up a great deal of raw material to make a battery. If the battery can be recycled then its not too bad. But can all of it be recycled?....

I once watch a 'How its made' type TV episode when macking an AA battery. It took 1000 times more energy to make the battery compared to what the battery puts out in its life.
Interesting. But it does make you wonder how accurate or biased those claims are. With such strong feelings coming from both sides of the argument and because of the differently manipulated data as a result, it seems difficult to get to the facts.
Given this point, I guess we all have to ask ourselves, what motivates our own beliefs on the subject. I love the internal combustion engine and always have, but I accept that they aren't good for the atmosphere and there does seem to be an overwhelming amount of documented supporting evidence of that in comparison to the opposing argument.
I do also believe what I read about how Co2 levels have gone off the scale since the Industrial Revolution, although much of it hasn't just been related to the internal combustion engine obviously. And regarding the argument that this is the start of another repeating cycle, scientists have ways of looking back far enough to know that the current change is well outside previously analysed levels. As these articles claim, it may be that current battery technology isn't yet green enough, but I feel that for the future, mankind needs to find cleaner alternatives to many existing causes of pollution.
 
This planet has been through multiple ice ages where continents we know as desert were once snow and ice. And the scientists have no clue as to the cause or the circumstances surrounding it. Lots of theories yes. Scientific evidence? Completely missing.

I view the whole thing as another diesel gate. The public are encouraged to buy electric cars like they were diesel. Give it a few years and the damage they cause will be unveiled and the used price of electric cars will plummet in favour of the next thing.

I have always said hydrogen is the future. Existing IC engine technology can be adapted (like LPG engines) and it’s clean. Given the level of investment we are seeing in electric cars, hydrogen production costs would reduce.

But how does that make money for the governments and auto manufacturers when conversion kits will become available on the aftermarket. It doesn’t and they need the gullible to spend money on the next fad.

So what will be the catalyst that stops electric cars?
My bet is that a country where the components are made or mined will suffer a government change. That new government will either have the rights of its people at heart and put a stop to slave labour or they will be financially motivated and price the components out of reach. And if that government has the military might to intimidate the super powers it’s over. We won’t even be able to launch an offensive because our electric tanks and aeroplanes won’t be able get there. Far fetched? Then take a look at the two super powers, Russia and China and see how they are setting themselves up for a move by destabilising the western politics and economy.

Do we need cleaner fuels? Yes. But we need clear unmanipulated data to show the true story. A full globally backed study to find the solution and an implementation plan that doesn’t benefit government and big industry over the tax payer. Until then we need to stop uninformed knee jerk reactions (like banning petrol and diesel cars by 2040) because the truth is they don’t know what damage the alternative they are selling Is really causing.
 
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I would love to believe that accelerated climate change from man made atmospheric pollution is all guess work with no scientific basis and that we can continue as we are with no ill effects on our planet. But to say that scientists have no clue isn't correct. The most direct evidence comes from tiny bubbles of ancient air trapped in the vast ice sheets of Antarctica. By drilling ice cores and analyzing the air bubbles, scientists have found that, at no point during at least the past 800,000 years have atmospheric CO2 levels been as high as they are now. I would say that is probably less speculative at this point than whether future governments might be changed or wars might be lost because one side had electric military vehicles and the other didn't.
And if we were to keep dismissing such scientific evidence as somehow fabricated or manipulated for some other, speculative reason, one could make that claim about any such information and the discussion may as well not have begun in the first place.
But it's a good point about finding much cleaner fuel alternatives for existing IC engines. Actually, I can see that potentially ending up being the solution over a mass migration to electric vehicles. I accept the point regarding the amount of energy and resultant pollution needed to produce batteries, with existing technology at least. The other point against electric could be the potential waste materials. Batteries would need to be 100% recyclable with nothing going to landfill. That would be a negative for me.
 
Your point about air bubbles in ice is incomplete data. This planet has had several ice ages and ice melts, ie no evidence. The polar caps as we know them are insignificant compared to the extent of previous ice ages. They have no clue.
Sorry, but the data doesn’t exist. 800000 years is a small time frame compared to the life of this planet.
And as for wars and the significance of politics and economies, well unlike ice age data the information needed to understand that is right there for anyone to see. You just need to apply it forward.
 
Well this thread certainly sparked a good debate. Nice to hear these views.
 
I should say that the part about air trapped in ice wasn't my own point or speculation by the way, it was a quoted statement of the actual findings of many scientists. But any predictions regarding possible government changes and wars as a result of a change to electric cars can surely only be pure speculation at this point in time and I don't think analysis of present or historical politics proves anything about that particular prediction.
From my personal perspective, I love big engined American cars and will continue to own and drive them, but that doesn't change my opinion and belief on what mankind is doing to our environment. Parhaps that makes me a hypocrite, but so be it. I guess it's a bit like the fact that I enjoy drinking alcohol but understand that it might shorten my life. I won't brush off the opinions of medical experts out of fear of being hypocritical. Likewise with the mass of evidence and expert opinion on climate change. Are they really all wrong and is all of the data manipulated? If so, would someone please present me with some equally opposing evidence because I have been unable to find any. I always remain open minded so that is a genuine challenge guys??
Yeah, definitely always good to have a debate and when AT and me have opposing views (which is quite often lol) the discussion seems to intensify. But I think that's a good thing and it's all well intentioned and amicable, mutually I hope? :)
True, this thread did begin with electric cars, but wouldn't we all agree that climate change is a closely linked subject?
 
I don't think analysis of present or historical politics proves anything about that particular prediction.

That’s where we are opposite. I can see the replays and power plays that occur and make accurate predictions. It’s been going on for documented centuries.
Predictions based on History going back billions of years and involving forces that we don’t understand (despite what the experts say) is something I can’t do.

Likewise with the mass of evidence and expert opinion on climate change. Are they really all wrong and is all of the data manipulated?

Unfortunately yes. There is billions in currency at play and the people at the top don’t want to lose.

If so, would someone please present me with some equally opposing evidence because I have been unable to find any. I always remain open minded so that is a genuine challenge guys??

No. Challenge back at you. Find some evidence that takes into account all the variables.
For example, goes back far enough in time to prove the event hasn’t occurred before. 1 instance from 800000 years ago proves nothing. Which one is the anomaly? A graph showing a rise in carbon monoxide is meaningless without also showing all the other elements over the same time period and from the same sample region. Without it you are not showing any contradicting (or complementary) rise or drop in those other elements.
Whilst you are at it, ensure you cover all the volcanic eruptions over the full sample period, including those perpetually occurring today in Hawaii and undersea. And I guess we had better include astronomical events too. Who knows what impact passing meteors have or influences on the magnetic forces have?
I guess we should also cover the gross tonage of sunken vessels to allow for the oceans rising. How many other contributory variables are there?
My guess is, you will not find it. It’s simply not possible to do and as such any evidence produced is always flawed. It is typically produced to show an argument that benefits something/someone somewhere at sometime. The manipulation of statistics goes back way further than Mr Casio!

But I think that's a good thing and it's all well intentioned and amicable, mutually I hope? :)
True, this thread did begin with electric cars, but wouldn't we all agree that climate change is a closely linked subject?

Nah, I think your a f**king idiot!!🤣😝😋
But all joking aside, electric cars have been around longer than than IC engines cars so no I wouldn’t agree.
My original intent was simply A discussion around electric cars and there development and not the driving forces behind their need, but it’s all good.

I would add though, that the development of electric vehicles has been slow until recently. Without a doubt the ability to create the more rudimentary components of an IC engine were much more in our grasp than high performance batteries. We have been forging ‘metal’ for centuries but batteries hadn’t evolved from the basic stores used by the ancient Egyptians.
Ironically the development of the IC engine has led to us being able to mine and build the technology needed for today’s batteries and the pioneering force behind was computing, laptops, mobile phones etc. Now that the technology is there, it’s very financially convenient for people to start making money off it and what better way than to hit people’s conscience?
 
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That’s where we are opposite. I can see the replays and power plays that occur and make accurate predictions. It’s been going on for documented centuries.
Predictions based on History going back billions of years and involving forces that we don’t understand (despite what the experts say) is something I can’t do.



Unfortunately yes. There is billions in currency at play and the people at the top don’t want to lose.



No. Challenge back at you. Find some evidence that takes into account all the variables.
For example, goes back far enough in time to prove the event hasn’t occurred before. 1 instance from 800000 years ago proves nothing. Which one is the anomaly? A graph showing a rise in carbon monoxide is meaningless without also showing all the other elements over the same time period and from the same sample region. Without it you are not showing any contradicting (or complementary) rise or drop in those other elements.
Whilst you are at it, ensure you cover all the volcanic eruptions over the full sample period, including those perpetually occurring today in Hawaii and undersea. And I guess we had better include astronomical events too. Who knows what impact passing meteors have or influences on the magnetic forces have?
I guess we should also cover the gross tonage of sunken vessels to allow for the oceans rising. How many other contributory variables are there?
My guess is, you will not find it. It’s simply not possible to do and as such any evidence produced is always flawed. It is typically produced to show an argument that benefits something/someone somewhere at sometime. The manipulation of statistics goes back way further than Mr Casio!



Nah, I think your a f**king idiot!!🤣😝😋
But all joking aside, electric cars have been around longer than than IC engines cars so no I wouldn’t agree.
My original intent was simply A discussion around electric cars and there development and not the driving forces behind their need, but it’s all good.

I would add though, that the development of electric vehicles has been slow until recently. Without a doubt the ability to create the more rudimentary components of an IC engine were much more in our grasp than high performance batteries. We have been forging ‘metal’ for centuries but batteries hadn’t evolved from the basic stores used by the ancient Egyptians.
Ironically the development of the IC engine has led to us being able to mine and build the technology needed for today’s batteries and the pioneering force behind was computing, laptops, mobile phones etc. Now that the technology is there, it’s very financially convenient for people to start making money off it and what better way than to hit people’s conscience?

Lol. Well f**ck off.. ya blinkered bigot!! :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:;) :)(y)
But seriously though AT, you say we are opposite on the politics point, but I do agree that historically, processes do have a habit of repeating themselves. And I also accept that money can significantly motivate corruption and a distortion of facts and figures.
With regards to your response to my challenge to find some countering information about global warming...by asking me to find more to support my own argument...I saw what you did there, very good! lol. But it didn't distract me from the fact that you didn't come up with anything :unsure:
On the face of it, it seems to me that there is at least some emerging scientific evidence to suggest that mankind is actually speeding up global warming, but only speculation with no science to back up the opposing argument. And regarding the aforementioned corruption and resultant distortion of the figures, I guess my point and main question is: why isn't there an equal balance of opinions on this? It's easy to find those who believe global warming as fact compared to those who refute it. If money and corruption are as powerful as some believe, why isn't it stamping out the uprise by presenting a sensible, balanced argument. Reason, I don't believe it can. All it can do it try to blame other things. To me that's a little like saying there must be a God because we can't prove there isn't.
 
But it didn't distract me from the fact that you didn't come up with anything :unsure:

That’s right. As I said there isn’t any! No-one has done the sort of research it needs, just enough to convince a few. And why should I find evidence to convince you? Your beliefs are your own as are mine. I’m comfortable with mine and if others aren’t? Well that’s just tough shit!
And let’s not forget, you haven’t been convinced enough by your own beliefs to convert to an electric car!

On the face of it, it seems to me that there is at least some emerging scientific evidence to suggest that mankind is actually speeding up global warming, but only speculation with no science to back up the opposing argument.

Nope, no scientific evidence either way. Some half baked attempts to prove something that are prepared with vastly insufficient data. We have already covered this .... far too many variables, but without it it’s easy to make data say whatever the hell you want. Want to me find data that says Zippy from Rainbow is homo-sexual? Easy. Find data that says the Donald Trump is an intellectual genius? Easy. Without all the variables it’s meaningless.

It's easy to find those who believe global warming as fact compared to those who refute it. If money and corruption are as powerful as some believe, why isn't it stamping out the uprise by presenting a sensible, balanced argument. Reason, I don't believe it can. All it can do it try to blame other things. To me that's a little like saying there must be a God because we can't prove there isn't.

People believe what they are told. Most people just follow the herd and don’t challenge and just blindly accept what they are fed. Just look at the difference between my views and yours over the track and trace app. In the end common sense prevailed after challenges were launched. Imagine what would happen if half the lives we are fed were exposed. But most people in this country (and others) are apethetic.
And your god argument works the other way too. People blindly believing a collection of stories written over many centuries of history by a huge number of authors, with each one trying to find the moral high ground. And people believe it. Each to their own but I like to challenge it and frankly the idea of some all seeing entity creating life and the planet and forgiving even the worst evil deeds is as ridiculous as the climate change theory. Completely without substance.
 
Regarding an electric car, I would buy one tomorrow but need a tow car for my caravan. I can't currently justify buying one as a commuter but have considered converting a car as a project.
And amid the claimed absence of enough concrete evidence either way, you and I will have to continue to agree to dissagree on whether climate change is real and what the cause might be. But that's fine with me, I am still happy to chat at shows and buy you a coffee lol One thing that has come out of this discussion though, we agree on the God point! ;)
 
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